HUGHES early dot-matrix WITHOUT TRIMMER !?!?!?!?

[azimuth_pl]

All:

can anyone give some hints about this strange Hughes Aircraft module 29mm?



it's an early type with dot-matrix,
the black plastic cover is shaped differently,
AND what is totally strange - it does not have a trimmer - it never had one.

I've had dozens of these Hughes modules and all of them had a trimmer, either with dot-matrix or bar-segment type.

would anyone know anything about this strange variation?
how to adjust it? or is this piece so early that nobody thought about the necessity of having a module adjusted? :?
however the green plastic has a hole for the trimmer which makes this mystery even more mysterious.

[retroleds]

Look under the crystal if you can...bet it only has two leads. For some reason Hgghes thought they could forgoe a trimmer on some of these, when they swtched to the two lead crystals in January 1976 or thereabouts.

[Majestyk]

Actually the crystal will have three leads. This is one of the first out of the factory in early '74, and before they started putting date stickers on the crystals. They did not make "dot matrix" displays past late '75, and then they moved on to the bar segments/colon, so we know this is from '74. But I believe the first 1000 modules, or fewer, had no trimmers. I base this on the fact that I have only come across one myself and it was in a very early watch case. I surmise that Hughes were confident, at first, that since their modules had their own crystals, they would not need trimming; but they obviously considered it, right away, since they have the round area on the plastic frame, to accommodate the trimmer.

I see where Ed is coming from though...A lot of manufactures of LED modules, near "the end" were getting rid of the trimmers, to cut down on cost. Frontier was one. Hughes, however, never did away with them.


Jeff

[retroleds]

Not to be argumentive Jeff, but I have a straight run of those dual LED/LCD modules from 6/75, 10/75/ 1/76 and 6/76 - Hughes went over to a two lead crystal in 1/76, compliments of the stickers. I speculated the trimmerless ones were from the end of the era, when they figured they didn't need them. You may be right, they could be from the beginning of the era before they knew how badly the crystals would age. The more streamlined design and the empty trimmer hole led me to speculate the module in question is an end times, not beginning times item. The dot display is a kink in my theory.....maybe only one particular factory ran off some with their old dot-style equipment? Maybe Azimuth(Piotr) could look on the side of the plastic battery shroud for a country stamp as Hughes often did. But who really knows? I just know I rarely discard a Hughes module without pulling the trimmer - best darn quality item

Now THIS is the minutia that gets collectors really juiced up 8)

[Majestyk]

Oh I agree with everything you say about the two lead crystals and the time tables, stickers, etc. But believe me, this module is from early '74...Remember Pulsar didn't have their "main" trimmer at first either.

Hughes weren't making this style of module past '74. All their modules had the time setting procedure starting in late '75. This one does not have that. It also does not have the detachable button contacts which they started going with in late '75. Also, if it has the AM dot within the time (not just the date) then it's definitely one of the first.

I can say with certainty that this is from '74.

Here is the break down of their 29mm modules from '74 to '78: (I won't include trimmer info). This is just from the top of my head, I don't have my notes handy:

First Module: (The one in azimuth_pl's photo) "Dot Matrix" Display. Time and date only, no colon. Has Am dot within time. Button contacts soldered to the PCB. No Setting Procedure (Combination of buttons to have to set). Pressing both time and date button gives you seconds. Very early ones had no "+" & "-" inscribed on the battery plating.

Second Module: Same but Hughes did away with the AM dot within the time. (There is a bulletin that comes with the early watches with these modules describing the omission of this). Button contacts soldered to the PCB. No Setting Procedure. Pressing both time and date button gives you seconds.

Third Module: Very rare! Came out late '75. Same features as module #2 but has the bar segments. So Hughes went to this display before adding the newer features. Not many of these were made as it was a short bridge between module "2" and module "4", which also came out late '75. Button contacts soldered to the PCB. No Setting Procedure. Pressing both time and date button gives you seconds.

Fourth Module: The 29MM that they produced the most. Late '75 introduction and the first time they used date stickers on the QC's. This now includes the month, as well as date, with a dash in the middle and colon in the middle of the hours, minutes. No more having to press both buttons for seconds...Function button only. Has detachable button contacts, for easy replacement. Best new feature...Has a time setting procedure. There was also a bulletin about this, included, with early watches. If these modules were in some higher end watches, Hughes used a slightly larger display. Some of these also had the date accessible from the main function button for one button cases. This gave Hughes the flexibility to sell more for companies that didn't want a separate date button on thier watch cases. To distinguish between AM and PM when setting you see a dash within the colon of the time. This indicates AM. Also the first module to use a different color plastic frame, other than green. (Mostly brown). Most of these were made in '76. It's rare to see them with "XX-75" stickers on the quartz crystals.

(A little hazy on the dates after this, but none made prior to Dec '75.)

Fifth Module: This came out very close to the Module "4". It's exactly the same except it has alphanumeric day of the week. It's easier to set AM/PM. It actually lets you select AM or PM in the time setting procedure, instead of the dash within the colon. Same specs, otherwise.

Sixth Module: Could have come out the same time as "#5". Includes Leap year feature in the setting procedure.

Seventh Module: Hughes programmable. This has 5 digits, rather than 4 with the colon LED in the middle. You can program a 5 word message, using letters, numbers, punctuation. This does not have a colon between the time, because of the extra digit in the middle. Rather it shows two vertical dashes. The setting procedure is has really changed on this. The time, date, etc, etc, will cycle through automatically until you stop it yourself.

Module "6" was made up until very early '78 but they still made more "#4" modules, so you'll see them more often ('76 was the LED 'Hey-Day"). Also, if you see a sticker on the quartz crystal that has a "W" in front of the date, it means it was worked on (repaired) by Hughes. Sometimes Hughes did not put the "W" stickers on the QC's (may have ran out), when they repaired them so some of the dates may not be accurate to when the module was actually made...Watch for stickers on top of stickers.

I might have skipped some minor features in between; again I'll look at my notes.

Just an update as I'm too lazy to make corrections above: Some modules (non programmable) do have s fifth "digit", in the middle, but it has no function other than the colon and dash. It appears to also have LED's like the other digits but no wire bonds going to them. I think it was cheaper for Hughes to just make 5 digits all the way across rather than four and a special colon/dash setup. This would be lumped in with the "#4" (after '75) to "#6" modules. I thought I was missing something with that fifth digit because I knew they weren't just on the programmable watches...Although they aren't really digits on the "#4" to "#6" modules.

Also, a correction...Some of the #4 modules do NOT have detachable button contacts, but most do.


Jeff

[azimuth_pl]

WOW!!!
this is why I like this forum :)
instead of a chat-room there are constructive and helpful answers.
I prefer to follow this path myself.

thanks a million, Gents.
my own theory has been confirmed.

- the display is the early one identical to the BigBlock without collon and a dot in the second digit for AM/PM
- the quartz has two leads BUT the metal cup is earthed with a wire exactly in the middle where the third lead would appear in the 2nd module version
- the plastic has a Mexico stamp.

as for timekeeping - surprisingly after so many years - it's keeping perfect time so they knew what they were doing by not adding the trimmer


PS. Would anyone consider this module to be more collectible than others? from my observations the segment modules seem to get higher bids.

[Majestyk]

the quartz has two leads BUT the metal cup is earthed with a wire exactly in the middle where the third lead would appear in the 2nd module version

I would never have guessed that their very first quartz, back in '74, would have two leads. Amazing! Of course, I've only seen one and I had no reason to take it apart since it worked prefectly. Why would they go from 2 leads, to 3 then back to two. :) Oh well, it's always nice to find out new things about Hughes modules. Although...I have seen repair jobs where Hughes used two lead QC's in older modules, with the "bridged" wire like you describe. I notice there is red paint on the QC. I've see red paint on Hughes modules that were repaired before.

In any case, this turns out great because that means both me and Ed are right. :) hehe



M

[retroleds]

I'd pretty much agree with the chronology Jeff laid out, with the exception of a few transitional modules and possible runs for certain large customers that tyhrows everything off.

Huh, I always thought the dot-style was more desirable.

[Majestyk]

with the exception of a few transitional modules and possible runs for certain large customers that tyhrows everything off.

There are some minor ones in between like one with an "AM"/"PM" (not dash for AM) setting procedure, but DOESN'T have Alpha day of the week. I could add maybe two more, very minor, variations but I think it's pretty much all laid out.


Jeff

[CompuChron]

Piotr,
In what case was it?

[Majestyk]

I've always liked their early dot matrix modules the best. They lit up brighter than the bar segment ones. Except for the rare module "#3". (Gotta love my numbering system). :)

[azimuth_pl]

the early '74 module can be found in one of the first Compuchrons - which in my opinion is not very sexy ;)
these pics are taken from ledwatches.net
one is described as having a Motorola module which does not seem correct as it clearly has a dot-matrix Hughes module.
it seems that it was just purchased in a late 70's LCD Compuchron box

[Majestyk]

Ha, Motorola Module indeed. Along time ago I informed the previoius owner of ledwatches.net that it was not right.

...it seems that it was just purchased in a late 70's LCD Compuchron box

That is correct. The box could be from the early 80's.

BTW, I have a new theory as to why Hughes didn't use trimmers at first. It wouldn't surprise me if the companies, that manufactured them, didn't have enough for all of the first wave of Hughes modules. (Assuming there was more than one company at that time, making them). There were only a handful of LED modules around, between '72 and early '74. So either there weren't enough trim caps in production at that time, or there were so many LED modules coming out in that period, that the trim cap manufactures couldn't keep up with the demand...Kind of the same thing I guess. So if Hughes had 10,000 modules ready to go and only 7000 trim caps, some modules wouldn't have them. It explains why the frames were initially made to accommodate them. If this is the case, they would have probably used the QC's with the best tollerance, in the modules with no trimmers.

Just a theory. :)


Jeff

[azimuth_pl]

well, I would partly agree with your theory because this module is keeping excellent time as for a 33 year old prehistoric digital watch 8)

however the board without trimmer has differently applied tracks in comparison to the one with a trimmer. if they didn't have enough of these, they would have needed to have the boards changed as well in the production process. to much hassle in my opinion.

[notonly1]

What do you guys make of this one? I found it in a box of old modules. It's got a cracked circuit board, but maybe I can fix it.

[CompuChron]

It's the missing link!
They didn't ran out of trimer but of plastic carrier!
They put the new carrier on the old trimmerless module.

[retroleds]

If we had a cool website T-shirt to give away for "shortest intelligent post", you would win Olivier.

[azimuth_pl]

great idea!
let's start designing

as for the module, the one I have has an earlier board as the plastic cover is painted black, whereas the other one has the later applied - transparent cover glued to the black cover.
perhaps the one I have had a quartz replaced (thus the red paint) and the green plastic swapped for some reason.

this has become a very interesting thread :D

[Majestyk]

Yeah theory #2 wasn't the most insightful one. :) I realized, about an hour later, that the metal paths on the PCB would not be the same on the trimmerless modules...But hey I left it anyway. I still could be on to something. :)

So if they did only have so many trimmers, then they would have to make different modules. However, it wouldn't have been a major design change...BUT now that I see that amazing, rare, frame in notonly1's photo, I can see my first theory is more sound. They "more than likely" didn't think they would need a trimmer to begin with.


Jeff

[notonly1]

great idea!
let's start designing

as for the module, the one I have has an earlier board as the plastic cover is painted black, whereas the other one has the later applied - transparent cover glued to the black cover.
perhaps the one I have had a quartz replaced (thus the red paint) and the green plastic swapped for some reason.:D

The cover over the circuitry is not plastic, it's brass painted black. I tend to think that the module I have is earlier since it seems unlikely that Hughes would use a plastic movement ring with a trimmer hole, then switch to one without a hole and back to using one with a hole again. My thinking is that they initially felt that they propably didn't need a trimmer as they were using a more accurate higher frequency quartz crystal than most other led watch module manufactures. Later they decided they needed a trimmer afterall and needed the hole in the ring.

We all know that Hughes made modules mostly for outside customers. Maybe asimuth_pl's module was a result of a temporary shortage of trimmers after Hughes started using them, or maybe it was a cost saving measure for a customer(s) that wanted a less expensive module (more likely in my opinion).

[azimuth_pl]

perhaps we are all right :) as they could have made them in different factories. the black cover on my module is however very strange, despite a hole in the plastic on the backside.
and here in just ONE thread we have the entire Hughes module history :)

[Led-Time]

Lad's,

Perhaps I can help a bit with the dates, I’ve recently got a couple of watches with the Hughes dot segment LED’s this Elgin has the date 10/73 inside the back cover, no trimmer and a brass module cover painted black on the front. This module has the AM dot in the hour digit when showing the time.


And this Helbros dated 9/74 inside the back cover, with trimmer, again with brass plate, but it doesn't have the AM dot when showing the time.


Just today I got this stainless steel Sears Roebuck in the post its also got the Hughes dot display...






This is a great thread... :D