Pulsar LED Analyzer

[Led-Time]

Does anyone know how this device works - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=012&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=220077414517&rd=1&rd=1 - I ask out of curiosity.

[Old Tom]

Tracing through the circuit diagram it seems to be a perfectly standard watch timing machine, designed for one particular crystal frequency, with a capacitive pick-up (notice watch goes face down on pick-up)- nowadays machines have digital readout of seconds gained or lost but back in the 70s analog centre zero meters and even paper tape printer output was very common on timing machines. Lovely thing to have though, but I would be in serious trouble if I bought it (having spent $2500 on a very nice timing machine about 18 months ago!).

[Higgie]

Upper device:
A speedy Trim, costed me 25 Euro's and is working perfectly.
An easy and fast way to tune your watch.
It works in exact the way as the Pulsar analyzer and can be calibrated.

Lower device:
Philips PM 6612 counter.
I use this counter to make my watches run extremely accurate. ( even more accurate than a synchronar at stable temperatures )

[Synchroserious]

Higgie that is a nice setup for tunning watches but there is no machine or instrument in the World that can make a quartz watch run any better than 15-20 sec a year, compare that to The digital Frequency Synthesiser in the Synchronar that allows the user with no tools or opening anything up to tune the watch to a still unsurpassed 4 seconds a year(MK IV).If you are talking about a MK I Synchronar, well thats another story because it had a trimmer/tunning capicitor in it instead of the advanced Digital Frequency Synthesiser circuitry and was no champion of accuracy.

[Led-Time]

Higgie,

Could you please explain exactly what you have there and how its used, I have a frequency counter which I use to set my watches to 32,768 but I have to probe the quartz directly to take a reading then make adjustments.

Can you show how you are taking a reading from that watch without removing its back.

Thanks...

[Higgie]

As you stated, i need to touch the leads with my counter's probe to check the frequency of the crystal.
In the picture you see the counter, but not the other watch.
Only the speedy trim can check the speed of the watch without opening it.

And Howard, this is how i tune my watches:
First i set it to the right frequency with my counter.
After a couple of weeks i check how much it has gained or lost and then i tune it again.
Now it should keep time within a couple seconds a year. BUT ONLY AT A STEADY TEMPERATURE.
If the MK IV is NOT temperature compensated it will most likely also gain or lose time when its heated or cooled down. ( correct me if i am wrong )
So you tune both to an average temperature.

If both watches ( the MK IV and say a P3 ) are kept in the same enviroment, the P3 module can keep better time because it is analog tuned with a trimmer ( asuming the trimmer is in good condition ) you can infinite tune a trimmer, and a MK IV "only" in 4 seconds a year steps.

Rgds

Hans ( who has probably the most accurate P3 in the world at an average temperature of 20°C )

[richard_uk]

Hey Synchro do you search Synchronar once an hour to check whats been said about them, ready to pounce and defend them if anything even slightly negative is said? If you spot something negative do you then rip off your shirt to reveal a lycra suit with RTC on the chest with keyboard at the ready? just wondering

[Synchroserious]

I have two 35 year old HP automatic frequency counters(no longer working) that directly read the frequency of a Crystal via a fiber optic eye pointed at the display while it is lit.This is mathamaticaly converted on a chart that tells exactly what speed setting to set that particular watch at.Otherwise a mathamatical formula can be done to attain the same thing if you keep track of the day and time you started your accuracy check and when you finnish.When comparing a tunned capictor type setting to the Digital frequency synthesiser it is like comparing a slingshot to a crossbow. I will explain more if asked about the benifits of the Synthesiser system,but I don,t feel it is appropriate for this thread.

Richard, Yeah If I let something slip it spreads like wild fire and I will still correct a small percentage of things I see,especially new posts that in my oppinion can be misleading even though it is not intended necesarily.It is a tuff job trying to be informative without sounding like a braggart,sorry if I come across that way.

[Lordpulsar]

Guys

There are various modern timers that do the same job, but much better than the Pulsar Machine.. I have the Pulsar timer and its really an ornament (although it works fine) To time and adjust my watches, I use a Witschi model 3000 and various other items.. The Witschi or a Zantech model 1000 will cost you around $150 on Ebay and they simply display how many secs a month the watch is running fast or slow ! Very easy to use .. :D

[retroleds]

I think Higgie made an very valid point; theoretically, since a trimmer is infinately adjustable in the finest increments, the overall highest degree of accuracy could be achieved. Given that the temperature remains steady. I think I've mentioned this before - various watch studies have been made that indicate the average temperature of a watch on the wrist is 86 degrees F. Checking and setting at room temperature will always fall a bit short.

[Synchroserious]

Guys

I don't how to say this but the range of adjustment on the Synthesizer scale is ten times greater than a capicitor tuned Oscillator and a sudden blow or shock to the QC can send it way out of range to be tuned out by the trimmer and you would need to replace the QC.This can however be tuned out with the Synthesizer.If Higgies watch held at 86% F were to loose say 5 seconds in one year you cannot then turn the mini trimmer dial one hair and get it to a better accuracy than that.IMO

[retroleds]

Howard makes one good point too - the total adjustment range of a Synchronar would accomodate a QC that has gotten farther out of range than an trimmer can....how far is another question. A serious shock or blow that affects a crystal(in my experience) takes it completely out, it doesn't just knock it seriously out of range. Whether on a Synchronar or any other watch, it seems that this would be the point in which you would want to change the crystal.
Turning a trimmer a "hair" for super fine adjustment? - myself, I use a screwdriver in which I have drilled a hole thru the handle sideways, which then accepts a foot long steel rod....I can control my movements to a very fine degree by watching and moving the end of the rod, since it is now moving on a 2 foot diameter circle. About one meter of total travel to cover 180 degrees
(2' X "py"(3.1475))
2
=37.77"

[richard_uk]

You lot need help, I'm happy if my watch keeps time to within a few seconds a day, I allways run my watches/clocks approx 10 mins fast anyway because I'm allways late for stuff. I can't understand why ayone would want to mess with a watch that kept time to within 5 secs a year, if you're that obscessed just use a radio controlled watch.

[retroleds]

Richard:

I couldn't agree more. Between different temperature exposure based on time of year and how much I am wearing a particular piece, obsessing over it is a trifle odd. Then you throw in changes to the daylight saving time system and even watches with a long range calendar have to be reset occasionally. Or moving between time zones - if you are going to be there more than a few days, you may as well reset your watch. :?
Atomic clocks - they resynchronize once a day, but what happens in between, as the quartz crystal inevitably ages and changes?

Glad to hear I am not the only one who puts his watches and clocks ahead to try and fool myself into being on time occasionally.

[paulmondays]

I've got a timex gps watch which I use for running, this thing adjusts its time to the satellites every time you link up with them. They claim that GPS has the most accurate time keeping system. It's useful for training but it has none of the magic of a pulsar. I don't mind if one of my pulsars is a few seconds out.

Maybe someone could link a P2 to a satellite system to regularly update its accuracy?

[GravityZ]

Higgie,

if you connect the counter directly to the crystal will that not affect the total capacitance of the crystaland watch

since the crystal is only 6.5pf it seems to me that hooking up the counter alone will change the frequency eg when you remove the counter the capacitance will change again thus changing the frequency.

As you stated, i need to touch the leads with my counter's probe to check the frequency of the crystal.
In the picture you see the counter, but not the other watch.
Only the speedy trim can check the speed of the watch without opening it.

And Howard, this is how i tune my watches:
First i set it to the right frequency with my counter.
After a couple of weeks i check how much it has gained or lost and then i tune it again.
Now it should keep time within a couple seconds a year. BUT ONLY AT A STEADY TEMPERATURE.
If the MK IV is NOT temperature compensated it will most likely also gain or lose time when its heated or cooled down. ( correct me if i am wrong )
So you tune both to an average temperature.

If both watches ( the MK IV and say a P3 ) are kept in the same enviroment, the P3 module can keep better time because it is analog tuned with a trimmer ( asuming the trimmer is in good condition ) you can infinite tune a trimmer, and a MK IV "only" in 4 seconds a year steps.

Rgds

Hans ( who has probably the most accurate P3 in the world at an average temperature of 20°C )

[Higgie]

GravitZ,

You're absolutely right.
I kept my previous message "simple" so most non-technical members also understood what i was saying.

( tech stuff )
My counters probe has an impedance (R) of 10MΩ and a capacity of 7pf
So if you touch the module, the frequency will indeed shift a little.
I compensate this by tuning most watches to a frequency of 32767.6 Khz.
After a couple of weeks i'll check it's timekeeping and if necessary i re-adjust the frequency.

Note: always use a radio-controlled clock, and check the module at the same time of the day, because most rc-clocks are very bad time-keepers.
And always use the same rc-clock.

[GravityZ]

ok sounds like a good way.

at least you can check with the speedytrim if your compensations make sense

is there perhaps a way of building a sensor which you can hook up to the counter so you won't have to connect it?

i do not know how the pulsar or speedytrim work but they probably have a coil with lots of winding to receive the fade magnetic pulse from the watch.

GravitZ,

You're absolutely right.
I kept my previous message "simple" so most non-technical members also understood what i was saying.

( tech stuff )
My counters probe has an impedance (R) of 10MΩ and a capacity of 7pf
So if you touch the module, the frequency will indeed shift a little.
I compensate this by tuning most watches to a frequency of 32767.6 Khz.
After a couple of weeks i'll check it's timekeeping and if necessary i re-adjust the frequency.

Note: always use a radio-controlled clock, and check the module at the same time of the day, because most rc-clocks are very bad time-keepers.
And always use the same rc-clock.

[Higgie]

Well, my speedy-trim is not as accurate as my counter, it's not temperature-compensated. My counter's internal X-tal of 10Mhz is kept at a steady temperature of 40C if i remember correctly...

The speedy trim works in another way as my counter, it compares the internal frequency with the frequency of the watch and displays the difference on an analog scale.

I don't think you can make a sensor for the counter because if you do so it will pick-up ALL radio-frequencies in your neighbourhood, even the 50Hz of the mains. ( yes i tried this ) making it very unreliable.
Perhaps if you would make a low-pass or band filter??

Sounds like a nice experiment...

[GravityZ]

i still have to finish a Nxieclock i build last year so this experiment will have to wait.

Well, my speedy-trim is not as accurate as my counter, it's not temperature-compensated. My counter's internal X-tal of 10Mhz is kept at a steady temperature of 40C if i remember correctly...

The speedy trim works in another way as my counter, it compares the internal frequency with the frequency of the watch and displays the difference on an analog scale.

I don't think you can make a sensor for the counter because if you do so it will pick-up ALL radio-frequencies in your neighbourhood, even the 50Hz of the mains. ( yes i tried this ) making it very unreliable.
Perhaps if you would make a low-pass or band filter??

Sounds like a nice experiment...

[retroleds]

paulmonday(hey, glad to see we got you back on, don't forget to change the password ): You brought up a different twist - the GPS clocks which are continuously updated by satellite, as opposed to the "Atomic clocks" which are updated using radio signal, typically only once a day. Those satellite clock systems are a big part of the systems that(to paraphrase a line I heard on TV recently),
"can take a missle thru the front door of a house without touching the doorframe."
Back to the original thread: I hope the person that gets that Pulsar tester puts it to good use. 8)

[rewolf]

...I don't think you can make a sensor for the counter because if you do so it will pick-up ALL radio-frequencies in your neighbourhood, even the 50Hz of the mains. ( yes i tried this ) making it very unreliable.
Perhaps if you would make a low-pass or band filter??

Sounds like a nice experiment...

With a band-pass amplifier it is quite sure possible. It can be a very narrow and thus very sensitive filter. Using a 32768Hz watch crystal as filter could work. It might be necessary to open the watch, but not to touch the module. Not sure whether inductive or capacitive pickup would be better. Sounds like a nice experiment, indeed :wink:
Using the display is a neat idea, new to me, but obviously just as good because the multiplexing frequency is derived from the same clock signal as timekeeping. But it only works with LED watches.