A threatening ex-customer

[retroleds]

Was contacted by a buyer of a Wittneaurhttp://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160037201407&sspagename=ADME:B:RTQ:US:1 I sold about a month back, 2 weeks after he received it and left great feedback. He says the watch stopped working, took it to his watch repairman and was told it is unrepairable. He asks for a refund, I tell him NO those weren't the terms, but I will replace the module for $55 to maintain good relations(the watch would still have been a decent deal, IMO). I hear nothing for two weeks, now he threatens "I'll also spread the word in the forums that you ripped me off." I let him know I would take this pre-emptive action. Thoughts, comments or just add him to your blocked buyers list if so inclined.

[Seer Taak]

I'd never have thought f you as a suspect dealer little1up....and I still don't :) Sounds to me like you did the right thing. If it were me I might (that is just might) have offered a replacement module for the cost of postage, but then i'll never make a business man!! :) The item is vintage, and who's to say the buyer didn't try using it like a modern watch- gettin it wet, and generally treatin it a little rough? I also think a lot of the knowledge on these watches has totaly gone out of the retail jeweler trade, so many new LED buyers get spooked when their local repairman says the batteries are unavailable, or watch is unrepairable. I have no doubts about your honesty little1up, and thanks for your help with modules in the past :)

[markos]

Since when did eBay sellers turn into high street stores selling with 12 month warranties??

[Fitron]

Let me put it this way, I emailed retroleds (ed's website) about a repair this morning and I have no worries about him ripping me off. Your reputation is unchanged..........weather or not this is a good thing who knows :wink:

[collector]

Hi Ed,

Just my two cents on this one and it is from a totally different perspective. First, I totally / generally agree with the policy of no returns on Vintage items (LED OR OTHERWISE). However, let me provide input from my viewpoint . Before you read on - as a member of this forum, yes I know you are totally reputable and honest - no issue there.

BUT, if I was only an eBay member who followed / investigated your purchases and sales and had bought the LED in question, I probably would have a thought that possibly the watch was a hodgepodge (etc) repair from the "STUFF" you had accumlated. I would then probably not be happy. I personally try to avoid eBay seller's (WHO I DO NOT KNOW) whose feedback indicates they buy parts, fix things and then sell them unless their feedback is absolutely at 100%.

Which leads to to another point to consider. Your current eBay feedback indicates you were mostly a buyer and not a seller. Now that you have set up both your website and may be agressively selling on it and eBay, what SELLING reputation you start with will last a while. People do not care how good your buying reputation is / was, they only care about what they bought. I do understand where you are coming from, but I personally would have switched the module for no charge or taken the watch back in order to really build up my sellers reputation. I personally have a "No returns policy" on stuff I sell on ebay, but if the buyer seems honest (and this one does based on their feedback) I generallyhave taken back the item and returned the money or even if the item is inexpensive let the buyer keep the item and returned the money anyway (not worth the shipping expense). FYI - my wife was just on the other end of this type of experience. She is a collector of vintage German Steinbach Smokers and bought one which was advertised as in perfect condition etc. When it arrived it obviously was not - to make a long story short, the seller refunded my wifes money and let her keep the item ($45.00 item) in order to protect their "100%) reputation.

Again, this is just my two cents worth!!!!!

[retroleds]

Hi Ed,(posting trimmed down for length by little1up)
BUT, if I was only an eBay member who followed / investigated your purchases and sales and had bought the LED in question, I probably would have a thought that possibly the watch was a hodgepodge (etc) repair from the "STUFF" you had accumlated. I would then probably not be happy. I personally try to avoid eBay seller's (WHO I DO NOT KNOW) whose feedback indicates they buy parts, fix things and then sell them unless their feedback is absolutely at 100%.

Collector: I agree I mainly have a buyers reputation, except in private transactions where I "think" I have left everyone very satisfied.

I do take issue(not angry issue, just different perspective) on the "hodgepodge" possibility. I'm thinking that back "in the day" people got their watches fixed with no concern whatsoever about whether the parts were original equipment. I certainly don't consider taking the module out of a scratched up Compu Chron(for example) and putting it into a NOS Compu Chron case a hodgepodge - otherwise, pretty much everyone who has bought one of the common Stainless Steel C.C.'s during the last 30 years has bought a "hodgepodge", since it is common knowledge that Compu Chron foolishly made thousands of those cases before realizing Hughes had stopped making the modules. Where did/have the modules been coming from? Answer:Other watches or rarely(as in the watch at issue)out of a once-in-a-lifetime cache of 40 NOS modules I won(which I have distributed across 10-12 members here on a limited basis, mainly thru mutually beneficial trades). Ditto on 9 out of 10 of the Dual led/LCD display watches that have came up on Ebay in the last year - modules that came from my "stash", now assembled into working pieces. Repaired modules, particularly with replaced oscillators, are probably(IMO, thoughts differ) more accurate and stable than ones that have merely survived time...they now have a new lease on life, of hopefully 30 more years. 8)

I personally don't keep modules in their case until I decide to assemble them, unless the module/case relationship is crucial and well know - Pulsar in Pulsar, National Semi in Novus,etc. My rule(considering modules are limited, cases are plentiful): the best case gets the best brain. Like one person said here quite succinctly," redundant modules in redundant cases". Of course, I've cracked open in excess of 1500 watches in the last 12 months, so I am about as detached from sentimentality on this as a gynocolgist looking at a woman for the umpteenth time of the day.

Regarding that cache of NOS modules which is now gone(I've received a lot of snippy comments on that deal so I'll reiterate for the detractors): I took an almost $2K gamble,on a guy with only two(2) feedbacks, to buy parts that were sight-unseen(untested), wiring the money which meant it wasn't covered by ebay or PayPal protection. And I've been setting them back into the world so other people can enjoy them every since - at very little profit since my situation allows me some flexibility.

[collector]

Clarification on my use of the term "Hodgepodge".

I used the term generically in order to illustrate how a buyer might view something. I have no quarrel with one returning something of value to the collectors fold. BUT, it must be done right! I know you take great pride in doing it "correctly" but many others do not. I wish all restorers had your ethics, but unfortunetly they do not.

As I said, if I personally dealt with or know the person / seller of a reassembled item I go for it. However, I have been burned too many times since joining ebay in 1998. The first "items" I started buying were pocket size transistor radios. (They were very hot at the time.) My criteria was that all radios had to be cosmetically perfect and in working condition with good repairs okay to the electronics. I can't even begin to tell you how bastardized some of the insides were. Crap solder jobs, melted circuit boards, redesigned inards, wrong transistors, crap reception, etc, etc. I quickly learned what questions to ask and who the good quality sellers / repair guys were. At that time I also started to add to my Spaceview Accutron watch collection. As some might know, there was an issue with the replacement 387S batteries speeding up the watches. (Long story - if anyone is interested in the story PM me). One of the fixes was to replace the coil assembly. Again, good guys and bad guys. I quickly leaned who the CAPABLE FIXER UPPER sellers were and only bought from them. Same experience when I started collecting LED's. One of the first ones I bought had a bare metal wire taped (very sloppily) across the batteries instead of the metal bar which belonged there. Another one had a module with the most bastardized solder job I have ever seen on the module and it did not keep any sort of decent time even though it was advertised as "keeps great time". I will not identify the sellers, but they still do business on eBay - would I buy anything from them - NEVER!!

Bottom line, in my opinion, its okay to restore / repair something but it should be done in a quality way.

[CompuChron2]

Hi,
my humble opinion on that:
-Ed is 200% honest , I'm part of the lucky ones who get nos compu chron modules from him(thanks again)
-Personnaly, I always try to keep my customer happy even though it cost me a few euros
-But on that case , the customer was happy and the terms of sale were clear : no warranty
And the more important is that the guy is becoming threatening , I don't like that , doesn't look very fair to me , the offer of a new module for 55 $ is honest.
I think you can't do more for him and more important , there's nothing to fear from him , the feedback is left and on the main digital watch forum , everybody knows you're honnest.
It may affect 1 per 1000 sale you'll make.
Don't worry , leave this threatening customer alone!

[retroleds]

Collector: Sorry if I sounded a bit aggravated. You hit the point I didn't make in my ire - if it's done right, it's o.k. to do a small amount of swapping, fixing or redesigning. It IS the guys doing shit jobs and the sellers who are just continuously reselling broken crap that destroy any reasonable person's love of collecting anything. I have a slightly evanagelistic mindset on this: sell good stuff, try to be supportive of customers who have problems after the sale within some kind of reasonable range and DON'T just pass on a problem to someone else.....

There are some good repairers and sellers out there: MJ, Majestyk, Pete F.(led-land), Uli Sick,etc. I don't view the good guys as competition - it's the bad guys who destroy the collector base and make people distrustful.

[retroleds]

I would have preferred to fix the watch at issue, I might have even relented on charging him if I somehow sensed all was on the up & up. But as they say,"the blood is in the water now". Darn shame.

[Fitron]

Interesting post from collector about selling reputations. However I have to point out some things.
True, little1up has a positive buying reputation but how many casual purchasers of digi's actually look up reputations. I've done ebay for years and I only know one other person who looks up reputations amongst all of my friends who use it (and that's virtually them all), none of the others do so, some didn't even know that you could. They look at 99.8% feedback and think "That seller is honest". Now this may be foolish but is's what I believe a majority of ebayers do. They're honest and presume others are too. I don't think ed has too much to worry about with one negative.
People are willing to take a chance. Especially if they really like the item. I've bought from China with 0 feedback and never been burned (no it wasn't a 42" plasma for ?250...as if). I've seen a wittnauer in boxed/mint with zero feedback go for ?100 - which is about the going rate anyway. Most people who use ebay know it's a gamble to some extent and they accept this, or else they wouldn't bid.
As for ed's buying history, yes it implies that he repairs watches but I would be equally suspicious if not more so of those sellers that only sell watches. You just KNOW that they have another account which is full of bought watches and that you're getting the cut and shut jobs at worst and a decent restoration at best. Of course as you ebay more people learn who to trust - forums help but this is geeky and insular. We in the led world know ed's rep, and others too. The great unwashed do not. All they have is feedback,gut instinct and a presumption that most people are fair. I'd say with that eds not going to suffer from this.
One final thing, perhaps not relevent but amusing. My mate who does check out reps takes the greatest risks and gets some stunning bargains. ?100's regularly saved. Reguarly! He's only had one cock up and that was a 100% reputation - he bought UK size 8 shoes for himself (thats a euro 42) and they turned out to be a kids size 8 euro 26 . Keeps them on his monitor as a reminder not everything is as it seems.

[retroleds]

I've decided I'm gonna make one more attempt at working with the man.

[joeywaycool]

I have noticed a few sellers that buy many LED watch lots, and then turn around and sell groups of LED watches as "untested" because they are unfamiliar or too busy to check them out....makes it even more comical when their ebay name has the word "clock" or "watch" in it....

For example: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... &rd=1&rd=1

When I sell a non-working LED watch, I am always sure to mention it! I am sometimes surprised to see that even fixer-uppers can fetch good money.

[retroleds]

JoeyWayCool(another good seller, IMO) - that batch is interesting, but it a lot of really "plain Jane" round faced, watches and some others(from what you can see in the pictures) that have bastard button positions. A classic example of a batch that I'm thinking should probably have their modules "harvested" if any good and the cases thrown away unless in particularly minty shape. Cases are plentiful, modules are the heart of it - why waste a Hughes Day-of-Week module on a no-brand watch, when it will fit something like a minty Wittneaur? But hey, I'm preaching to the choir....you guys already know a nice case ain't $hit if it doesn't have an engine in it.

I sent my angry buyer another offer of me looking at his piece and trying to make good if there is no monkey business.

[Majestyk]

I'll just mention the way I handle these things and this is not me saying that this is the way Ed should have handled or not handled it.

If someone has a watch that fails within a year and they are civil when they contact me, I always get them to send it back and I will endever to try and fix the module. Usually it's the quartz crystal, so I'll just replace it.

I already know it's the QC in that Hughes module in the watch Ed sold. I know that module very well and it's a 50/50 change that the QC's will go on them because the way they were built. On top of that, the QC's are very hard to repair on these...I SOMETIMES can repair these particular Hughes but other times I botch the repair job.

If I can't fix it, then I will keep a look out for an auction with an LED watch in crappy shape, with the same module, and forward the auction to this person.

Jeff

[retroleds]

Jeff is right, that crystal is one of the harder to fix and marginally more likely to fail than some others.

Buyers:Civility(since the seller, realistically, holds the cards) IS extremely important....I just took care of a small glitch on a watch I sold someone 3 months ago, for FREE, even the return shipping, because the guy had a good attitude. He understand things happen after the sale that we can't control but he hoped I would maybe be able to work some magic on it or at least go easy on him if there was a charge. Voila! -the watch is working!! 8)

[retroleds]

40 days since I made my offer to try and make things right....not a peep back since. I give up.

[Planet-LED]

I am entering this thread a bit late, but I do not respond to threats. I would make that very clear from the beginning. If the threat is removed from the table, I would then reasonably discuss a fair resolution to the problem. If not, I would tell him that I would have been more than willing to work something out with him had he not threatened me?and let that be a lesson to him for the future.

Ed, I?ve not had the pleasure of doing business with you, but your reputation on this board, and on Ebay, stands on it?s own. Anything this twerp has to say is not going to mar your reputation.